How to Be a Trauma Survivor Advocate & Writer: (Answering Your Questions)

I have made a career out of writing and advocacy as a trauma survivor and am happy to share all I’ve learned. It has been a challenging journey and I made a lot of mistakes along the way. In this post, I’ll answer your questions and hopefully make your path a bit easier.

“I have questions about writing about trauma, I have a blog ready to launch but it’s scary. It’s been ready for 4 years. Hopefully, I can write a book about trauma survival and healing would like to know how to get a memoir published. Also, the best routes to becoming an advocate, like where to start, how to speak so my voice doesn’t tremble. I appreciate anything you can share.” 

O.k., There are a few questions in here I’ll answer and I have some questions for you as well. You mention a blog you have had ready for four years. Why did you write the blog, to begin with? What has kept you from hitting publish to date? These aren’t trick questions. You have reasons and they matter. Why you wrote and why you haven’t yet published might provide you with some answers or at least help you know more clearly why you are struggling. Do you have the support, safety, and resources you need to publish? Are you worried about who might read what you write?

For me, publishing posts was both terrifying and exhilarating. It was freedom and I also felt afraid – but the urgency pushed me forward as the words felt necessary. I was in pain and needed community. However, I had a lot of support and friends who are survivors and writers and believe in the power of truth-telling. That helped a lot.

I had people who could remind me of my passion and mission when I suffered self-doubt, felt raw or overexposed, or when I faced backlash for speaking up and out. I had (and have) people who can help me process my thoughts/feelings if I have the “vulnerability hangovers” Brene Brown warns about.

SO BEFORE WE GET TO THE PUBLISHING PART OF YOUR QUESTION, I THINK IT HELPS TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR CALLING OR MISSION OR REASON FOR YOUR BLOG, THAT IS UNSHAKABLE. FOR ME, A DESIRE TO MAKE SOCIAL CHANGE WAS AT THE CORE AND MY BIGGEST QUESTION WAS THIS:

I CAN SAY THAT FOR ME, WHEN I STARTED BLOGGING PUBLICLY AND IN MY OWN NAME, IT WAS BECAUSE I REALIZED I WAS SICK OF HEARING FROM “TRAUMA EXPERTS” SPEAKING ABOUT TRAUMA TREATMENT. I WASN’T REALLY INTERESTED IN THE CLINICAL APPROACHES USED IN A CLINICAL HOUR. I WANTED TO HEAR FROM PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED TRAUMA AND WENT ON TO HAVE A PERSONAL, PROFESSIONAL, AND SEX LIFE THAT WAS SATISFYING BECAUSE I WAS TERRIFIED I’D ALWAYS FEEL ONLY ANXIOUS, DEPRESSED, AND POST-TRAUMATICALLY STRESSED. I WANTED TIPS, SURVIVAL STRATEGIES, AND INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN THROUGH WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH AND WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE TO GIVE ME HOPE THERE WOULD INDEED BE ANOTHER SIDE. I DIDN’T WANT TO HEAR FROM ACADEMICS. I WANTED TO HEAR FROM HOME PEOPLE MANAGED TO PARENT, PARTNER, FUNCTION, WORK WHEN SYMPTOMS WERE CRISIS LEVEL AND ALSO WHAT TOOLS HELPED PEOPLE SO THAT LIFE WASN’T ONLY FEAR OR CRISIS. THIS IS A LONG ANSWER. BUT I REALIZED, I’M SEARCHING FOR A LEVEL OF OPENNESS, HONESTY, AND TRANSPARENCY I’M NOT WILLING TO DO. SOMETHING ABOUT THAT REALIZATION AND BEING IN MY 40’S MADE ME IMMEDIATELY REALIZE I HAD TO STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING OUT IN THE WORLD AND START WITH MYSELF AND BE AS OPEN AS I’D WISHED OTHERS WOULD BE, AND BE WILLING TO SPEAK IN the FIRST PERSON, INCLUDING ABOUT THE TERRIFYING, CONFUSING, AND DIFFICULT ASPECTS OF ALL OF MY EXPERIENCES, AND I COULDN’T AVOID OR IGNORE WRITING ABOUT MY ABSENT FATHER, OR ABUSIVE STEP-FAMILY, OR THE NEGLECT THAT SHAPED ME – ALL OF THOSE EXPERIENCES IMPACTED ME AND I WAS TIRED OF IGNORING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH TAKING UP ALL OF THE SPACE WITHIN MY OWN SKIN, SOUL, AND PSYCHE.

HOW CAN THERE BE SO MANY SURVIVORS AS SO MUCH SILENCE?

AT SOME POINT, I DECIDED NOT TO TRY TO ANSWER THAT AS MUCH JUST STOP BEING SILENT. AND SO SPEAKING UP ABOUT THE THINGS I HAD BEEN MOST SILENT ABOUT WAS WHAT I DID. I DID IT FIRST ON MY OWN BLOG. FOR SOME, BLOGS MIGHT BE SAFE AND FOR OTHERS, A BLOG MIGHT BE TOO CLOSE TO HOME AND FAMILY AND FRIENDS, AND MIGHT NOT FEEL SAFE. FOR SOME, LIKE ME, USING MY FULL NAME WAS IMPORTANT, BUT FOR OTHERS USING A PEN NAME MIGHT FEEL SAFER. THAT’S UP TO YOU. THAT’S A GOOD QUESTION TO CONSIDER AND THERE IS NO WRONG ANSWER.

I REMEMBER WHEN I DECIDED TO WRITE ABOUT BEING A SURVIVOR OF INCEST AND PUBLISHING. I WAS AWARE THAT I COULDN’T GO BACKWARDS. FUTURE JOBS, AND DATES, AND POTENTIAL IN-LAWS, AS WELL AS FAMILY MEMBERS, MIGHT READ MY WORDS AND KNOW MY PAST AND MAYBE NOT IN THE WAY OR ON THE SCHEDULE I WANTED. THAT WAS SCARY AND IT IS HAS REAL IMPLICATIONS. BUT I FINALLY REACHED A POINT WHERE I REFUSED TO ACCEPT SHAME OR BLAME ABOUT HAVING BEEN TRAUMATIZED. IF PEOPLE WERE GOING TO JUDGE ME (AS I’D JUDGED MYSELF FOR MOST OF MY LIFE, AS LESS, AS DAMAGED, AS FLAWED, AS TROUBLED) BECAUSE I HAD SYMPTOMS AFTER BEING TRAUMATIZED, I DECIDED THAT WAS NOT MY PROBLEM. THAT INCLUDED FAMILY, FRIENDS, FUTURE DATES, IN-LAWS, OR EMPLOYERS.

For me, a lifelong quote fantastic and collector, I had a bunch of quotes that inspired and made me strong. On this topic, of speaking up and out, I always return to Audre Lorde. Here are just a few that fortified (and still fortify) me:

“Your silence will not protect you.”
― Audre Lorde, Sister Outsider: Essays and Speeches

“If I didn’t define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people’s fantasies for me and eaten alive.”
― Audre Lordee

“When I dare to be powerful, to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.”
― Audre Lorde

  • FOR ME, I WAS NO LONGER GOING TO BE CONSTRICTED. I REFUSED TO BE SHAMED FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO ME IN CHILDHOOD – AND THAT WAS LIBERATING AS HECK. BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN MY VOICE DIDN’T AND DOESN’T TREMBLE BECAUSE IT DOES. I GUESS I GOT TO A POINT WHERE I DIDN’T LET THE TREMBLING STOP ME. BUT HOW THAT HAPPENS FOR EACH OF US IS PERSONAL. AND WHAT WE ARE EACH AFRAID OF IS DIFFERENT. SO, I’D ASK ANOTHER QUESTION:
  • WHAT IS YOUR PASSION AND WHAT ARE YOUR GIFTS? FOR ME, SPEAKING IN PUBLIC IS HARDER THAN PUBLISHING. FOR OTHERS IT IS THE OPPOSITE. FOR SOME, ART IS ACTIVISM, AND FOR OTHERS, JOINING A COLLECTIVE OR COMMUNITY PROVIDES THE COURAGE THAT BEING SOLO DOESN’T.
  • YOU CAN MAYBE CREATE A COMMUNITY OF 3-6 BLOGGERS WHO SHARE A BLOG IF THAT BRINGS COURAGE. YOU CAN JOIN OR CREATE A SURVIVOR COMMUNITY WHERE YOU CAN FIND SUPPORT, INSPIRATION, AND COMPANY AS YOU SHARE.
  • AS FAR AS PUBLISHING, A MEMOIR, OR A BLOG, I’D SAY START OUT BY SHARING SOMETHING ONLINE OR FOR PUBLICATION TO SEE HOW YOU FEEL SHARING AND GET USED TO THAT. THAT CAN BE ON YOUR BLOG, OR IN A FORUM LIKE MEDIUM OR FOR AN ONLINE PUBLICATION. AND THEN SEE HOW IT FEELS TO BE SHARING AND PUBLISHING. THAT WILL HELP YOU.
  • FOR ME, ADVOCACY AND SOCIAL CHANGE DROVE ME MORE THAN BEING RECOGNIZED AS A WRITER. THAT IS NOT THE CASE FOR EVERYONE. BUT FOR ME, THE POINT REALLY WAS TO “BE THE PERSON YOU NEEDED” AND TO WRITE WHAT I WAS CRAVING READING THAT I COULDN’T FIND.
  • AS FAR AS PUBLISHING A MEMOIR, THE ROUTES TO PUBLISHING WHETHER WRITING ABOUT TRAUMA OR ANOTHER TOPIC ARE PRETTY SIMILAR SO GOING TO WRITING WORKSHOPS OR CONFERENCES, OR GETTING BOOKS ABOUT HOW TO FIND AN AGENT ARE ALL IMPORTANT. WRITING A BOOK PROPOSAL IS A LOT OF WORK BUT IT’S ALSO A LOT OF FUN.
  • YOU CAN FIND BOOKS ON WRITING NON-FICTION BOOK PROPOSALS WHICH WILL BASICALLY TELL YOU TO DO A TWO-THREE SENTENCE SUMMARY OF EVERY CHAPTER, AND GIVE SAMPLE CHAPTERS (USUALLY THE FIRST TWO OR THREE), AND ALSO, TO SHARE YOUR PLATFORM WHICH CAN BE HARD FOR INTROVERTS. YOUR PLATFORM IS YOUR BLOG, YOUR FB, TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, OR OTHER PAGES AND THOSE DO MATTER TO POTENTIAL AGENTS. THEY ARE NEEDED AND FOR MANY OF US SELF-PROMOTION IS REALLY HARD (MAYBE HARDER THAN SHARING WHAT WE WRITE). BUT YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE WHO YOU ARE NOT. YOU CAN INVITE PEOPLE TO YOUR WORK OR TO YOUR PAGE AND FOR ME AT LEAST, THAT HAPPENED BY PUBLISHING ONLINE FIRST IN VARIOUS FORUMS WHETHER THE BOSTON GLOBE, MS. MAGAZINE, ELEPHANT JOURNAL, ACES CONNECTION, TO WRITE LOVE ON HER ARMS OR THE ATTACHMENT TRAUMA NETWORK. IN THAT WAY, YOU START TO SHOW THAT YOU ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO WRITE AND TO SHARE YOUR WRITING AND IN DOING SO PEOPLE CAN FIND YOU. WHEN PEOPLE FIND YOU, YOUR PLATFORM WILL GROW AND YOU DON’T HAVE TO WORK AT AS MUCH AS YOU MIGHT THINK OR GET GIMMICKY OR DO THINGS THAT MAKE YOUR STOMACH SOUR. BE YOURSELF AND BE CLEAR AND HONEST ENOUGH AS YOURSELF SO THAT YOU ONLY HAVE TO STAY TRUE TO YOURSELF BECAUSE IT’S HARD TO GET THAT WRONG.
  • YOU CAN FIND AGENTS, WHO WILL HELP YOU WITH A BOOK, OR YOU CAN SELF-PUBLISH DEPENDING ON YOUR GOALS. I’LL SPEAK MORE TO PUBLISHING ABOUT TRAUMA BELOW AS WELL AS BECOMING AN ADVOCATE. I HOPE THIS IS HELPFUL AND PLEASE ASK MORE QUESTIONS IF IT IS NOT.

“Hello! I’ve been following your page for a few years now and am just wondering if you have any ideas of how/where to find agents or publishers interested in a trauma survivor memoir. I’m having a very hard time finding agents willing to look at a memoir, let alone a trauma-based one. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m struggling with a lack of money and lack of technology, social media skills to navigate what seems to be a pretty elitist and traditional world of publishing. Thanks so much for your page, and your time!”

  • You don’t need a dime to self-publish or to try to publish in online magazines or forums. In fact, you can even be paid to write for some though I know few who make a living this way alone. You can get by without the money but you will need to get some training (even YouTube tutorials for free) on how to use technology and social media because that is a requirement if you are hoping to publish and build a platform.
  • If you are writing for your own joy or healing, you need never worry about technology or media. You can write in a journal and in my book, writing for yourself and only yourself is totally valid and for some, the only route, if the other choice is to become technical or need social media. If you don’t want to do that, and can’t afford to hire someone who can do it for you (which most of us can’t) – it will be near impossible to find an agent or a publisher. I may (and have) wished this not to be the case, but it is the case of current publishing. The publishing industry has changed a lot and you will need to become aware of those changes. Again, you can do so by watching YouTube videos, reading books and magazines about publishing, and by looking at the online and social media presence of writers you admire.
  • You will need social media but you do not need to become an expert. You can have one social media platform where you are most comfortable. You can have a simple blog that costs nothing to put together. You can start by testing online publications that have rules and a process for submitting writing and they are almost always online.
  • As far as interested agents or publishers, look at books you LOVE and that are similar at all, and find out who the agents, editors, and publishers are because they will be mentioned in the book. They have exhibited a willingness or desire to publish on these topics and know-how. It might mean a small press or a feminist press, for example. You want to find someone that is comfortable with the topics you write about and likes your writing style. Think of it like getting a job and finding the right match vs. trying to make yourself into something or someone you aren’t.
  • You can reach out, usually on social media or email to authors, and ask how they find agents or publishers. Most are happy to share.
  • Also, clarify your goal and reason for publishing a trauma-based memoir. You will need to do a non-fiction book proposal and write a pitch about exactly why your book is needed, how it is different than other books, and why you are the one to write it and you will also, and this is hard for lots of us, need to detail how you will share and promote your book once it is published.
  • Look at people getting published and how they read or share or host events online. If this feels impossibly hard, do you have anyone in your life who is tech-savvy or comfortable who can show you the ropes and help demystify the process? Can you take online classes, even ones on Udemy for under $20 is a way to start.
  • I don’t want to discourage you because YOU CAN self-publish and get published but you might have to start with small online newsletters and magazines, and niche groups who are writing about trauma because they exist.
  • Also, writing about trauma is writing about life. Many of us have experienced trauma and maybe use words like crisis, hardship, adversity instead. You don’t have to use clinical language. We are all humans and interested in the human spirit and how we manage, are impacted by, overcome (or not) what has happened to us. This is true for all humans and not interesting only to trauma survivors. You can share your pitch and how it is about trauma, but also, what you have to offer from all of your identities maybe as a parent, friend, partner, professional, volunteer, etc. In other words, bring in all of who you are because even as we are trauma survivors, we may be writing or thinking about love relationships post-trauma, or trauma survival, or post-traumatic growth. Be as specific as possible about exactly who you are and how your book is both similar to and different than other titles out in the world. Use that to be persuasive about the book you are writing. It is hard, that in publishing we do have to prove we have a platform already and that we can reach others. For many of us, introverts, or who feel vulnerable, or don’t like self-promotion this can be hard but most publishers want this because they no longer have much of a budget for marketing and sales. So, this is not something I’ve found a workaround for. You do not need money to create a platform but you do need time (and that can mean a loss of money). But you might be able to barter with others in exchange for being helped or guided in this and offering tomatoes, your editing abilities, a craft, or some skill you can share that is tough for another.


“Any advice on finding an agent or publisher who will consider trauma-based memoir? So far all I’m hearing is rejections, I’m guessing because the story begins in a pretty dark place and agents only read the first chapter or few pages.”

  • It’s so hard when you get rejections. I admire you for putting yourself out there. YOU WILL find or create a path. As hard as rejections are, they are also helpful. Many editors or agents will tell you that the title or premise or whatever doesn’t speak to them. It’s helpful to know but the very same book rejected by 100 can be accepted by 1. So, what you do with the feedback you get is up to you. You ha
  • You can change your beginning if you think it’s too hard for agents/publishers or you can write a letter that is read before the book that frames the entire book and explains why the beginning is essential, as is, and what else the book offers.
  • You can decide that the editors-agents-publishers who don’t like the beginning aren’t the ones for you. If they are afraid of heavy writing, they might change your entire narrative and who wants that?
  • You can start publishing excerpts online and seeing the engagement, comments, and views and show your potential agents-editors-publishers that there is hunger or interest in the topics and the way you write.
  • You can start a blog and share the stats on readership. You can share some on social media pages. You can submit to online presses (but make sure you retain rights) to demonstrate you are publishable.

I would like to be an effective advocate for trauma survivors. Your work has inspired me and shown me that it can be done with integrity. I would love to hear more about how to do it. It feels overwhelming and hard to know where to start.


First, thank you. Integrity and inspiration are important to me and that my work demonstrates that to you makes me feel wonderful. My approach:

  • Find organization and advocacy groups you admire. For me, that was The Attachment Trauma Network, many adoptive family networks, as well as ACEs Connection and ACEs Too High, and Ms. Magazine online, and places that share about traumatic stress in various ways and with different groups (maybe with a focus on trauma as it impacts parents or women, or that share a feminist perspective, or that share a specific angle important you). And volunteer if you have the time or submit writing if you are willing to share. This is a great way to start developing relationships with advocacy organizations and to meet people driven by the same things as you are. This is super helpful. Also, if you need money, as most of us, you can start looking for jobs at organizations that are already doing the type of work you wish to do. And, if they don’t exist, you can find something close, and get some experience, and also think about creating something brand new and all your own. But, that can be expensive and overwhelming and isn’t possible for all of us.
  • For me, I started a writing center and it didn’t make any money at all but it did get me some media attention, and more than that, it helped me focus on writing to heal and telling the truth about living with traumatic stress, which for me, were and are both important. I not only didn’t make money – I lost money – but I learned so much and took such a big risk and hurled myself in the universe and towards a dream – and then learned, in the process, that as a single parent and sole provider, the stress was too much for me, and I needed to be paid for what I was doing or it wasn’t sustainable. That was really hard and I’m not going to pretend it wasn’t. I burned through some of my retirement savings and lived VERY lean for a long time and it was hard. For me, having a day job and insurance and income to cover my needs, allowed me to be freer in what I wrote because I wasn’t depending on advocacy or writing to make a living – through both eventually did. But, in the beginning, I needed enough steady work to make me feel secure and decent about myself as a parent. But these are important things to know.
  • I didn’t want to be ground down and barely surviving and going into debt, because for me, while stressed and broke, it was hard to be creative, never mind sleep or relax. So, I guess I’d suggest being really clear with yourself about what you WANT AND NEED FROM ADVOCACY work as well as what you WANT AND NEED FROM WRITING because that is important.
  • I hardly ever work for free anymore and will say, straight out, when asked to, “That I can no longer afford to work for free.” I can’t afford to because I have advanced cancer and limited time and other times I couldn’t afford to because it would mean not paying my bills so I had to do freelance work instead. The world is changing and the value of advocacy is recognized by many and those are the places you need and want to work with and for or you will burn out, go broke, and possibly be exploited. This is a hard part of advocacy – there’s a lot of discrimination still – and a lot of people and places who say they value “authentic” and “survivor” and 1st person voices but who will only pay speakers or writers with big names, fancy degrees, and who are connected to well-known organizations. This is the hard part. Because many advocacy groups don’t have a huge budget and so they hire those people because they don’t always have to cover travel or fees or expenses because those people have universities or non-profits where they work who will cover all that and they can sometimes speak for free to promote a book or their workplace and that’s a luxury few solo advocates have. So, you need to find places that value advocates in practices and pay and not just in words and that is not always easy.
  • For me, having a day job allowed me to be as radical as I wanted and as honest as I wanted in what I write or do on my own time and that for me worked. For me, freedom and ability, to be honest, is most important. There were places that asked me to be less honest, say about how awful talk therapy is for many survivors because maybe that is the only treatment they provide to trauma survivors still. Obviously, this could be a conflict. So, for me, I could be more selective when my income wasn’t solely based on advocacy. It’s important to know, again, what you need from the work you are doing as well as what you are trying to achieve because it will help guide your decisions.
  • Please let me know if I didn’t answer your question or concern or address what feels overwhelming and I will try again.

Finally, as a real-life example, I can also share that I was diagnosed with #ovariancancer in August of 2019. Though I have lived with it a short time, I became an advocate which is unlike #PTSD, which I had for decades before becoming an advocate. But some things are similar and recent so I can share what I did first.

First, after being diagnosed, having surgery, and starting chemo, which all happened in a sudden 3-week period, I read EVERYTHING.

I read books on ovarian cancer, memoirs on ovarian cancer, and joined FB groups with others who have all types of cancer. I joined groups of people on clinical trials like I was on, taking drugs like I was tying, coping with chemo and cancer, and who were also hoping to blend alternative and traditional medicines. I knew, from my PTSD years, that meeting survivors is as important as meeting doctors.

I knew that how I was experiencing treatment was as important as studies about treatment methods. I wanted to learn from others who had been there and are still there and who could help me learn what resources and organizations serve survivors most, as reported by survivors. To be honest, Dana Farber and Mass General have some excellent resources but it’s still not easy to find places to connect with others who have or are going through the same. That was essential for me. The people who have lived with this disease can share resources that are effective, useful, and current.

Also, once I had my footing, I joined the Ovarian Cancer Research Alliance as they have Survivors Teaching Students program. It’s excellent. It’s 20 min. slide deck about #ovariancancer and then three survivors speak primarily about the experience of being diagnosed (or misdiagnosed) hoping to help educate students (future doctors) on signs, symptoms, and the need for early detection tools as there are currently NONE – NADA – ZIP.

Pretty fast, I got angry at the “silent killer” name #ovariancancer is given. Cancer is silent and it kills when not detected or effectively treated. There’s nothing special about ovarian cancer except it ignores that and has some public relations spin that it’s super hard to detect. Yes, without a detection tool that’s true for all cancer. I knew I needed to start sharing about this disease and challenging the awareness campaigns aimed at women that ignore that when we do go to the doctors we’re frequently misdiagnosed or our symptoms are minimized. For me, this is the focus of my advocacy because it skews us away from help, hope, and cures and implies that it’s just a particularly bad/hard cancer. It’s cancer without early detection or effective treatment (it’s diagnosed late, 75% of the time) and recurs 70-90% of the time because treatments don’t work well for most. Most people are not aware of this or that treatments for all but those with the BRCA genes haven’t improved in half a century.

So, after I joined OCRA I started meeting other advocates and joined FB groups and then started sharing on #twitter and finding many other #canceradvocates. In fact, I joined the Advocates for Collaborative Education (they go by ACE and it’s not the adverse childhood experiences I speak of). Anyhow, that helped me meet other advocates and many of whom have been doing this work for years and decades. I’m still learning from them. Some parts of advocacy are similar and some are different.

And I’m still very new and very much learning and growing. I’ve written only a few pieces on ACEs Connection as well as the Patient Advocacy Network. Again, this helps me find others and it helps others find me. And so, in some ways, I am starting all over again but with the knowledge and expertise, I’ve had from being a trauma survivor.

I also joined a free workshop I found out about on Twitter and connected with Ziggy’s Wish. 

It’s all I’ve done in 18 mos. Four articles, one volunteer advocacy group where I do four or five sessions in a 12-month period, and a weekly meeting with other cancer advocates. I share my personal experience, some, and spent far more of my time learning. The Patient Empowerment Network does pay for reporting. But all else I am not paid for. For me, right now, that’s o.k. because I’m learning so much that I need to help me fight for my life, and I’m privileged to have disability coverage so I can pay my bills while learning and fighting for my life.

Again, please ask questions if I didn’t answer yours or if you now have a million more.




You Matter Mantras

  • Trauma sucks. You don't.
  • Write to express not to impress.
  • It's not trauma informed if it's not informed by trauma survivors.
  • Breathing isn't optional.

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